 |  Well,Hope US is not a bad apple,Unlke UK
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docface
Forum Senior
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BBC Four: How did the doctors you interviewed for the programme feel about how they were received in Britain?
Julia Foot: When they first arrived there weren't that many black and Asian faces around. Some of them were the first Asians in the area and were treated as subjects of curiosity and invited for dinner. But within the hospitals I think there was some scepticism about them even though they'd been trained in the British medical system. Although they had the qualifications on paper they never walked into the jobs they were qualified for. They thought they'd go into new training hospitals and use the specialist training they had. In fact they were pushed into the deprived and inner-city areas where the British doctors just didn't want to go.
BBC Four: Do you think this scepticism was because of language problems or prejudice?
JF: I think it was prejudice and looking after their own. The National Health Service needed a big work force because it was expanding at a tremendous rate. New hospitals were being built, new specialties were being established and bodies were needed to fill these posts. Bringing over doctors from South East Asia meant they could fill posts in general practice, psycho-geriatrics and mental health while British doctors got all the plum jobs.
BBC Four: A doctor in the programme who says there was a pecking order based on nationality...
JF: It was totally accepted. The English doctors got the best jobs and then it was the British doctors - the Scottish were the most vocal, so they were next and then the Welsh and the Irish. At the time it was the general medical perception of the training that determined the subsequent pecking order of Pakistani, Indian, West Indian and African doctors. The doctors I spoke to said, "It happened, it was accepted, we knew we would get the shit jobs so we didn't fight the system. And by not making a fuss we could sometimes leapfrog because a post would be filled and then we could jump up a notch."
BBC Four: Their reaction to prejudice was intriguing. There was the instance of the doctor who wasn't allowed the key to his own practice.
JF: When he was the head of the practice.
BBC Four: And instead of lodging a complaint and making a fuss he engaged in a very restrained but powerful protest.
JF: What amazed me about that story was that I first interviewed Dr Kureshi at the British Medical Association conference at Torquay and asked him if he had experienced any prejudice. In the way of all the doctors he said, "Oh no, everything was fine, everybody was nice". And it was only subsequently, when I met him again in Bristol I said, "All the historians say that there was prejudice and I can't believe you didn't experience any" and he said, "Well, there was this time..." and he told me this horrendous story.
There was pure racism and discrimination but the doctors accepted this would happen and took what opportunities they could. Over the years, some of the specialties they went into, which were very unpopular at the time, like Accident & Emergency and the psychiatric lines, have become very important. That's why there are now so many Asian doctors in top positions who have formed this rising Asian middle class. It's very clear that while they accepted this prejudice and discrimination, their children who are also going into medicine, aren't accepting it and are actually getting the top jobs straight away.
BBC Four: It's amazing the number of South Asian doctors that there are in some areas - you mention the figure of 73% of GPs in the Rhondda Valley.
JF: And 71% in the next valley along, the Cullen Valley. One of the doctors said, if you saw an Asian walking along the street in the Rhondda Valley he'd either be the GP or the man from the corner shop. I picked up the story because I have a friend who's a health visitor in the area and when I told her I was doing this programme about the number of Asian doctors in the UK she said, "Have you looked at the Rhondda? I think there are quite a few there". I did a printout of the GPs and there were Indian names, one after the other. They became very established in the areas but their children don't want to go back and fill the places.
BBC Four: This is something you mention in the programme, few doctors now want to fill the places which were taken by the first wave of Indian doctors. Are steps now being taken to address this?
JF: It's such a serious problem in South Wales that they're actively trying to recruit GPs to the area and to make the job more attractive. They're organising cover so GPs don't have to work on their own for so long...they know that when all these GPs come up to retirement there's going to be this massive hole.
BBC Four: And do you think the NHS will do what it did in the 1960s and recruit from abroad?
JF: That's what they say they're doing but I don't think it will be done on quite the same scale as before. A number of doctors are coming over from other parts of Europe but they have more of a language problem. The advantage of the South East Asian doctors was that they were trained under the British medical system and had excellent English.
pall of gloom descended over thousands of doctors of Indian origin in Britain - many of them reduced to scrounging for free meals in temples and gurudwaras - after they lost a case Friday against changes in immigration rules that make it virtually impossible to gain employment in the country's National Health Service (NHS).
Many doctors who had found temporary employment now face the prospect of returning home, while others waiting to find employment find one more door closed. Until Friday, thousands of doctors from India and outside the European Union who passed qualifying British tests had been living in penury and hope in parts of London and elsewhere.
The changes to the rules were announced on March 7, 2006, and came into force on April 3, 2006. The changes abolished permit-free training and made it mandatory for doctors from outside the European Union to obtain a work permit to gain employment in the NHS.
The NHS has historically attracted a large number of doctors from India and other Commonwealth countries. But the situation changed for them with a larger number of British graduates passing out from medical schools, and nationals of an expanded European Union having the right to work in Britain.
On Friday, Lord Justice Stanley Burton of the High Court of Justice of Queen's Bench Division did not accept that there were sufficient grounds to support the claim that the changes in the immigration rules or the subsequent guidance given by the Department of Health were unlawful.
The outcome is expected to set a precedent for two more judicial review petitions relating to changes made to the Highly Skilled Migrants Programme (HSMP) and raising the qualifying period for permanent settlement for immigrants on work permits from four years to five years.
The immigrants affected under these categories - many of them Indians - have initiated the legal process, but the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (BAPIO) judgement has now made them less hopeful of a positive outcome.
The case for a judicial review of affecting doctors was filed by BAPIO, which represents the large number of doctors from the Indian subcontinent working in the NHS. It was filed jointly with Imran Yousaf, a doctor who had been affected by the changes and who reportedly committed suicide recently.
Raman Lakshman, BAPIO's vice chair (Policy), told IANS: 'This (judgement) we believe will have a devastating and profound impact on thousands of International Medical Graduates (IMGs) whose hopes for progressing on a better career path are dashed. Many will have to return to their country of origin with disappointment about the NHS.
'IMGs, a majority of whom come from the Indian subcontinent, have been the backbone of the NHS for many decades. The new rule treated them despicably and with no concern for their welfare. This was always morally wrong and we are disappointed that this has not been found to be legally wrong.
'I do not see a future in the UK for young doctors from India who are not already in a training programme. We would ask young doctors to consider very carefully their options and not damage their careers by taking up jobs that will not lead anywhere.
'BAPIO is disappointed that the verdict has provided no relief to thousands of IMGs whose careers are being destroyed by the new immigration regulations which came into force on April 3, 2006.
'We are surprised that the court does not agree with us that the Department of Health guidance misrepresents the effect of the Immigration Rules and it is an illegitimate attempt to amend the rules, thereby circumventing the requirements of section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1971.'
However, the BAPIO said that verdict gave some comfort about the Home Office not complying with the requirements of the race relations legislation and the acceptance that no consultations were held before the changes were announced.
Lakshman said: 'It is disappointing that the judge concluded that there was no obligation on the government departments to consult. It leaves voluntary organisations such as ours, in some serious doubts about genuineness of consultations that are designed to encourage greater engagement for influencing policy development'.
Commenting on petitioner Yousaf's death, the Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants (VBSI), a forum campaigning against various changes to immigration rules affecting a large number of professionals, most of them Indians, said: 'On the day when the verdict in the case initiated by Dr Imran Yousaf (and BAPIO) is to be announced, it is very saddening to have learnt of his suicide apparently instigated by the turmoil caused by the Home Office's refusal to grant him a further leave to remain in the UK. We send our deepest condolences to his family and friends'.
The immigration changes had created alarm and panic among thousands of doctors from outside the EU, particularly those from the subcontinent. Until then, doctors from outside the EU, including from India, were able to take up NHS jobs under what was called 'permit-free training' schemes.
Their jobs were considered part of training that did not require work permits. Thousands of Indian doctors were employed under the scheme and were usually hired for short-term periods of one or two years. The doctors would need to find new posts after their term expired.
But from April 3, 2006, it was made mandatory for employers to obtain work permits before employing these doctors after making a case to prove that no British or EU doctor could perform the same job.
This rule effectively ruled out any chance of employment for non-EU doctors. The employment situation for Indian doctors was anyway very difficult, with thousands of them unemployed and reduced to living in miserable conditions and availing themselves of free food served in temples and gurdwaras in London and other parts of Britain.
After the outcome of the judicial review was announced, Ramesh Mehta, President of BAPIO, thanked the many hundreds of doctors who had helped raise funds to fight the case. He said: 'This is a very sad day. This was a fight to uphold the self-respect of IMGs in the UK. We would like to thank our legal team lead by Rabinder Singh'.
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| new_n_lost
Politically InCorrect
Topics: 650
Posts: 6,058
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From wht is written here i think its just going to be a very cautious move by Policy dictators if it happens here Although i m an IMG but if we look from there point of view they arent wrong in protecting the basic healthcare needs of the ppl and Atleast provide them with ppl who actually stay in the Country long enuf that civilian population benefits from them. But this wht makes America a bit different from others THIS IS THE LAND OF IMMIGRANTS. And i think the rights of Immigrants r better protected here then anywhere else. They just dont call it THE LAND OF EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for nothing if any of us feels rerouted then we can expect tht cos we r impinging ourselves in this country to have a better chance to learn & cultivate ourselves SO they have a Right to Deny us the opportunity and we cant do S*** abt it.
I know i m going to get slack for this post but this is wht i feel we look at it more carefully n without prejudice we r expecting it some how n it shudnt suprise us.
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FORUM RULES-- Those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. I get enough exercise just by pushing my luck --P4U World.." The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple."
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| Sayulita
Forum Guru
Topics: 101
Posts: 521
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and yet everybody wants to be here
let me tell you it is not easy
to live here but then again there is no place like home
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