tania_b
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This is to address rashmi,..Well, I can bet you are from India. Now I have gone through the whole process of graduating from India. The biggest drawback in India is, that not even 20% of a single batch that passes out from any college, gets into an MD seat= post graduation seat, because of 2 reasons- 1. The tremendous competetion of the candidates who have been trying for last 5 years, and 2. The limited availability of seats considering 80% seats are payment seats/contact seats.
What you spoke about- some influential people dont even need a MATCH / scramble- that holds true only for american graduates, which by the way, is not a competition of foreign graduates!!! morover that holds true in every system!50% of foreign graduates match in this country on the basis of their very own credentials.So, in that sense I certainly would say, this country is transparent compared to what people go through in UK and of course in India.
The other issue that you raised was that of use of ''gamma knife'' and instruments..I could do nothing else but laugh at this. Very few community hospitals here in US, dont have services of MRI..I dont disagee, but its not that these patients are dying without MRI/ cyber knife for gods sake!! They do arrange for patients to go for MRI / or other procedures elsewhere, somewhere close to the hospital. And if in India as per you , is technically so advanced, sorry to say then do you think all these forum members are fools to spend a fortune trying to get out of that country to make a living elsewhere?And of course , if ''gamma knife and MRI'' is your criteria for selecting a residency training program...well what can I say..
I would certainly not say that our country- India is lagging behind- as you accused me of saying. I never said that at all. I am constantly emphasising, how very tough and nearly impossible it has been for the best of medical graduates to pursue a career in medicine, starting from postgraduation, if people dont have money or contacts!!Which is exactly the reason , why 90% of INDIAN MBBS grads are living on gurdwara / temple free lunches in UK, or going for strenuous exams as that of USMLE, and any day anybody would prefer USA at least for the sake of JOB SECURITY which this country provides you with.
And you certainly haven't hurt my feelings to the least, because I myself am a living proof of the so called transparency of the system here in US, since as you correctly did mention I have accepted a pre match in a more than decent institution in my choice of city in my choice of subject, and with absolute average credentials without the help of ''external sources''.
As NIHADAM correctly said- ''the doors are not open widely, but not closed either''!!! Its the other way round in every other country- doors are open for selected people ONLY, and closed to rest all.
Also, no body is in a desperate situation here, unless one has visa issues, which is more common than you can even imagine if you are a citizen or a greencard holder like me.And let me tell you, that even for those desperate people with J1 / H1B, this ECFMG does provide you with a chance to RANK programs. Rest is all upto the candidate based on his / her discretion, as to whether he /she would reject a program due to lack of CYBER KNIFE or not.
And I certainly wish you would be my collegue in this very year, why the year next?. I am waiting to hear the good news about your match in 2006
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| chivasregal
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Topics: 10
Posts: 285
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phew!!!..tania_b i like ur arguments..u got solid knowledge base for these arguments..i mean i would never argue abt anything if i dont have a clue abt wat im talking abt..but seems like u know it all..hats off to ya ....everyone keeps saying that oh US has given us so much we should be greatful to this country..I agree..i mean who is not greatful...atleast i am for watever opportunities this country has thrown at me..but when it comes to selecting programs for residency..i would say aim for the best[ atleast there's no harm in doing that]....when we never settled for less in our life then y should we settle for less now..just coz we r in a different country??..i m sure most of us went to best medical schools in their country so y should we settle for less now...we worked hard to be where we r now...have made lot of sacrifices..have good credentials...i mean US is a country of opportunities where people come to realise their dreams....I would understand ur point of view to settle for watever program n be greatful for that in case if one has attempts on scores..or is an old graduate,,or has less scores....but if one has good credentials n everything for which one worked hard for then settling for an average program is selling urself short......u keep making comparisons of UK with US..which is ridiculous to do so in first place....there r lot of differences between health care of UK n US...u will find more racism in UK than US..i agree most of so called average programs might b better than many good hospitals in third world countries....we learned from the best n r here to compete among the best...if someone wants to settle for an average program than let it be that way but u can not genralise ur opinion or infringe ur opinion on everyone else here....i dont know ur credentials n i dont care but seems like u had average scores n u didt get interviews from good programs n u have a defence mechanism going on to justify wat u did..no offence but u live ur life the way u want n let others live the way they want it to...Good luck
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| Vai
Forum Elite
Topics: 30
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GOOD POINT CHIVASREGAL!
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| tania_b
Forum Elite
Topics: 10
Posts: 119
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Just for your information, I had very good 20 interivews, scores which were both in 80s,all first attempts, yr of grad-2004,greencard with USCE, and I got the hospital which would have been my number 2 choice in my rank list.So, in short, your brilliant imaginative ideas about what miserable situation I might be in, was unfortunately wrong, since there are people who are in a much worst situation.better luck next time about judging other's situation.
And, it is so unfortunate, that you people are not getting the basic jist of what I am trying to say, rather you are frisking away at different things which dont matter. Never for once did I say that everybody should go for an average program, for heaven's sake. Who wants to do that??But you guys have to remember , that every body doesn't make it through the best of university programs, so openly crticising ''bad'' programes is just not fair.
First of all chivasregal, my previous post was just a response to rashmi for the points she had raised. You too dont have a right to accuse me, of trying to impinge my ideas on others!!!
The only point I made right in the beginning was, that NOT TO UNDERMINE OTHER PROGRAMES openly, for the sole reason, that not every program in this country is perfect. Of course you all have the right to rank and select your own choice of hospitals and I am sure it works out best for all you guys, and it is only for YOUR best interest that all candidates are allowed to rank!
People had mentioned programes like Kingsbrook, Barnabas ,UCSF -sanfrancisco and few other programes in NY,thats simply not worth it, and that as per vai, its best to go for next yr's match if you get matched in such places. I strongly do oppose this 'attitude''. And thats exactly where it all started from.
And of course, thanks a lot for your sarcasm regarding my knowledge about ''everything''..well, I am a physician and I certainly am supposed to keep this minimal knowledge when it comes to the kind of situation people in my profession are in, in different places of the world.Its called general knowledge you know. Perhaps it is time for you to realise that nothing anyone writes in this forum can literally FORCE anyone to do so, and that whatever I am posting is just a metter of discussion and NOT an argument.And I do not have a policy of making personal judgments of people and putting it down in forums just the way you did, because I believe in somethin called ''courtesy''
Thanks for all your luck though.
Edited by tania_b on 03/09/06 - 04:08 PM
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| rashmi_k3
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Topics: 27
Posts: 301
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tania........ its getting hot, hot, hot..
Its good that I found someone to fight out few of my frustrations and disbeliefs.
I agree to most of your criticism and justified statements, but few went over my head. I think you have got the numbers wrong while talking about the competition among MBBS candidates for MD seats. I believe its not that narrow what you think.
Now think about this, the amount of time, money and effort we are putting into this USMLE is not comparable to a guy getting a seat at AIIMS entrance exam. Ofcourse there is competition back in india but the ultimate result what IMGs achieve in this country is not far superior what most of us assume.
While discussing about contacts, its not only AMGs who get most out of it but we get our shares too. for example, take my case.....I couldnt sit for this match due to a delay in gettin my degree certificate ( having average credentials), i know someone (PD) who could appoint me @ IM residency next year with a H1B visa, even i couldnt believe this. So contacts matters everywhere, making the competition worse for others, especially IMGs.
Rest of your arguements were valid except that you concluded my statement of judging a residency by Gamma knife surgery, i didn tmean that. I wanted to compare the situation in both the countries.
Well, i maynt join you in NY ( have something to negotiate). i would have loved to be your colleague though.
Good luck for your residency.
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| doc_droc_apurva
Forum Guru
Topics: 38
Posts: 1,705
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dear tania
may i ask why should one not wait out a year if he/she can get a better spot next yr??
ur logic #1 = take anythin u get this yr and then switch = false. u will have to apply in sept after joining residency in june + difficulty to find pgy2 spot in good program + only 3 months reco from pd + pissed off pd
ur logic #2 = take anythin u get in any program and then complete.. if u go to a maggie farm program then u will have to do a few yrs researchn to get a fship. why not wait a yr to get into a program with inhouse fships?? true harvard, etc are unrealistic but a mediocre uni prog is well within the grasp of an img today..
and please do not degrade india - if u want proof then try out there and see what u get. yes ppl come here for the opportunities.. i personally had 3 offers to do phd in biomed engineering at IITs after MBBS. it rewards ppl also - just that fewer ppl get rewarded. i came here but bcoz of personal reasons. its easier to be good amongst 10000 candidates rather than 100000 candidates. dont say bad about the country which gave us everythin we are today. my college fees were a mere 10$ per annum and it afforded me all the gamma knife and mri gizmos u talk about.
we all have close friends whom we have left behind. at times when we have good things in our sight we shud be humble - for there are mountains to climb and oceans to swim.. i take inspiration from ppl like drmamu - jipmer grad with goldplated cv - yet he is 1 of most down to earth guys i have come across. and vai - the guy with the most amazing sense of humor ever ever possible..
every private practioner / hospital here in usa is defensive. the mris here are ordered like chest xrays in india. its a technocrats paradise and an oldfashioned clincal docs nightmare. and i am speaking from personal experience in both systems..
the power of the gc has been felt acutely by me. ny friend with weaker creds has 10iview calls and has the choice to rank a program like suny brooklyn not in his top 5.. but that doesnt mean we give up or compromise. asking for a visa is not begging / desperate - its asking for your right.. ur not a guy who came in here via an underground tunnel and wants to do minimum wage at petol pumps. taking something when u dont have options is different from not backing yourself.
anyways gl2u. hope god gives u all the falafels that muscat has to offer
apurva
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| chivasregal
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tania_b wrote:
First of all chivasregal, my previous post was just a response to rashmi for the points she had raised. You too dont have a right to accuse me, of trying to impinge my ideas on others!!!
Well if u think u would write in a public forum n no one would reply to the post then should better 'PM' that particular person ur post was supposed to be meant for....everyone is entitled to their opinion..if some one wants to mention the names of bad programs which one should totally avoid then they have the right to do so coz of virtue of right to freedom of speech...it might not help u but it will help all other future applicants.....
U had the opportunity to go to these bad programs right? did't u? easier said than done??...i mean u could have shown ur greatfulness to those programs by going in there then y did u take a prematch at some other place[ or u took prematch at one of these bad programs n now u r pissed coz people r mentioning them as bad programs]..watvere the case might be..its doest matter to anyone ..u mentioned ur view point n other people mentioned theirs..u don't have to justify urself if most of the poeple don't agree with u....u said u strongly oppose people's this 'attitude'..keep on opposing..who cares..
im glad to know that u r smart enough to find sarcasm in my post which was intentional..n thank you for enlightening me abt 'general knowledge'..i mean i had absolutely no clue wat 'general knowledge' meant b4 u told me ..wat kind of situation people in ur profession r in, in different places of world?..do u mind elaborating on that?.....i was so naive that i did't know that nothing anyone writes in this forum can literally FORCE anyone to do so ..i am open to any discussion.,.bring it on..there will be a time[ infact more than one time] in one's life where one will find their opinions conflicting with opinions of other people..be open to constructive criticism.....'COURTESY'..what kind of courtesy r u expecting from people over here on net?..to acknowledge wat u said was right or wat?
you r welcome........
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| tania_b
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ur logic #2 = take anythin u get in any program and then complete.. if u go to a maggie farm program then u will have to do a few yrs researchn to get a fship. why not wait a yr to get into a program with inhouse fships?? true harvard, etc are unrealistic but a mediocre uni prog is well within the grasp of an img today
I honestly dont know which world you are living in. Do you by any chance , think, that residency spots with ''in house fellowships'' guarantees a post for fellowship to every single candidate? This is the biggest joke I have heard. You are sadly misinformed. The best of candidates , in programes with in house fellowships, are never guaranteed a seat!! Everybody works towards it, but its insanely difficult to get your choice of fellowship in the same place where you do your residency from...because there is a concept of Match there too, and again preference is as usual given to Yale / Harvard candidates and ex research candidates of the same institute.Its not that its impossible, but yes, it certainly is much more tough than what you think of, at this stage.And what about older graduates who have been well esablished in their own home countries and dont even want to do fellowships or just people who just dont want to do fellowship..does waiting make any sense for them?
So, your idea, about waiting for a year is ridiculous, NOT for a person with stellar credentials like you / the people who are your inspirations, who themselves may be stellar too!! [ bY THE WAY, i loved your concept of DECLARATION of your in forum inspirations...I dont know how you related the declaration with what I had posted, but nevertheless... mmmm..was it a way to introduce the big shots?? Well it was nice to have had the honor of interacting with them then!!
Do you by any chance think, that people who do residency in those so called ''bad'' programes turn out to be worthless later on or their life is doomed? When a candidate is running for fellowships / jobs, no body cares a dam about which program you come out from, because then it all comes down to different credentials. For people like you, it would perhaps be nothing short of misery to get into such programes but there are people, who, today are dying to get a post even there, if they can, just to get into the system once and for all...because mind you, just the way you have put in so much time, money and effort, they too have done the same..the only difference being, they haven't performed as brilliantly in the tests as you guys have done. While you guys have all the choice in this world to take as much time, for which no one is stopping you, there are people who JUST cant afford the same and thats exactly the reason I was talking about openly criticising these programs which do mean something to people who dont have any choice.
I have in no way degraded India as such, but yes, the indian health system for students is DEFINITELY FLAWED whether you like it or not.I dont understand why you are getting sentimental stuff like ''leaving friends behind'' etc into this!!! Everybody has had a good time in their own home country and everybody including me has left parents and friends there, and yes, I do love my country for reasons best known to me. But I am not biased.
Rashmi is talking about AIIMS and you are talking about IIT biomed- well, sadly only few stars like you come out shinning...and what happens to the rest,??? you can read in the news papers or talk to numerous doctors, who attend classes with a strength of 200 students, after working hours in Delhi, for preparing for All India Entrance exams, out of which hardly 30 do get seats that very year. The rest keep trying, and eventually perhaps they do get in later!!!Of course this is just 1 city am talking about. And then of course lot of them are busy doing strikes half the year in various states for reasons that matter to them most!!!
In other words, passing out with 10$ fee per annum / from an institute with gamma knife is not what will train you to be a good physician. It is the post graduate training which will, the opportunity of which is SCANTY in India. People who do get in, things sure may be favourable for them, but only to an extent.
The last thing for all people who do read this post,for the hundredth time, I am not degrading India in any way,but its the sorry state of affairs of the Indian medical EDUCATION system after MBBS that I am strongly disappointed with, and it will be best if we dont argue about that particular issue, because it is a well known fact, that people who are a part of this forum and boast about the well being in India are themselves hipocrites to an extent...think about it...All of us have grazed here for GREENER PASTURES..only the reason for coming to the greener pasture, to each of us is different..RIGHT????
Its almost time for the Match results to be out. I would like to wish each and every one of you all the very very best , to get into your higher ranked programes
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| tania_b
Forum Elite
Topics: 10
Posts: 119
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Hey chivas regal!!!
You are 1 resident the hospitals should really watch out for I must say.You know what? You are too polite and too good natured for me to respond to you any further . And I am sure your patients would feel the same This wonderfully hostile post of yours was hillarious. I am glad to have stirred up too many emotions in here!!!!! Its getting more and more interesting day by day!!!
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| Vai
Forum Elite
Topics: 30
Posts: 195
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Tania_b, I don't know you but I know doc_Apurva and I think it is barely impossible that somebody knows better, programs and how works this system, than him. Your remark -"I honestly dont know which world you are living in"- about him is totally misplaced; the right place is as a background on your computer desktop.
In my country there is a proverb(pardon my ignorance maybe it is universal):"if somebody tell you that you're drunk-you can continue to drink; if second one tell you that you're drunk- you can still continue to drink; but if the third one tell you the same thing- you must go to sleep." - take it as a hint.
P.S. you should share with me your glad to have stirred up too many emotions...i have a big contribution
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| drkill
Forum Elite
Topics: 15
Posts: 189
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I think tania_b u have extended the discussion far longer than called for.We r all grown up proffessional ppl...plz lets not personal here.it is a public forum n ppl will write their views whether u agree or not,u can either agree or politely disagree but no pt asserting your point ovr n over again .We heard what u want to say n that shd suffice.some will agree with u some will not.I dont understand y we r discussing this time after time n making it an argument for nothing.Besides (i keep saying this) we r all mature enuff to know what are chances are n anybody who can -should choose.which means anyone who has limited choice shd make the best of what they have.no body is dumb enuff to reject a position bcuz dr vai or dr apurva or dr tania or dr kill said it in the "forum".everybody makes their own decisions and and their is no point shielding them frm outer influences cuz its bad for them rather than good.Having said that, I dont think the BEST program necessarily have to b univ or wid inhouse fellowshios etc...its whats BEST FOR YOU ...which cd mean ure city of choice,ure speciality of choice/fellowships/visa/family anything.I dont understand who r u defending?
I have no comments abt situation in India cuz i dont want to make it another war.I do agree most ppl come here for better opportunities n better rewards.and if they do have the means to they should.It is also acceptable to have more opportunities if u graduated frm the usa or been a resident of the country n have been paying taxes for years.But its not all abt expecting too much or abt a gamma knife....some of us have studied n worked in the most advanced hospitals of their home country n might not be comfortable in working in an under equipped one here .again, since i do have higher standards to compare to I shall, n since I can choose ,i shall.Nobody is going to stop me n any attemps in this direction r futile.
the competition is getting worse each yr n i hope everyone makes a good decision this yr and may they be happy in whatever they decide. good luck.
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| bbb
IM Program Coordinator
Topics: 33
Posts: 5,222
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Dr Kill wrote: I do agree most ppl come here for better opportunities n better rewards.and if they do have the means to they should.
I just thought that people came to meet me!
(Just kidding - trying to lighten up a serious discussion)
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bbb - trying to combine common sense and humour into realistic answers, but not going to guess on anyone's chances of getting into a position....
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| drkill
Forum Elite
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isnt that part of the rewards bbb? godbless you!
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| bbb
IM Program Coordinator
Topics: 33
Posts: 5,222
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bbb - trying to combine common sense and humour into realistic answers, but not going to guess on anyone's chances of getting into a position....
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| chivasregal
Forum Elite
Topics: 10
Posts: 285
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OK guys lets all cheer up ...go out n have Chivas regal, Vodka, Wine or Beer...n yes BBB u can have Margaritas!!...Best of luck for MATCH results on Monday..hope everyone gets their first choice program....Watch out bbb I am coming to ur program
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| doc_droc_apurva
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ahem - thank u for askin me which world i live in.. i appreciate ur concern for my surroundings. i am AAOx3. i am trying hard not to make a personal comment against u and i hope that i succeed.
YOU STAND A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING A FELLOWSHIP FROM THE PLACE U DO YOUR WORK IN. PERIOD. all arguments against this are baseless and deserve no counterpoint in light of a true debate. the only point i wud like to enlighten u about is that u stand a better chance of getting a fship from a uni hospital rather than community program - bcoz u get recos from faculty who are well published and known in the field. u have better scope for research. i have been in a community hospital setting for 3 months working as a regular intern and admitting patients under me - probably u were priveledged to have that experience when u did ur paid externship under a private physician. the thing is the faculty in a usual comm hosp are not well known. but i dont need to say all this - every1 who knows something about usmle is aware of these facts.
AND PROGRAMS KEEP A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF SPOTS FOR INHOUSE CANDIDATES. HENRY FORD KEEPS HALF OF THEIR GI AND SUNY BROOKLYN KEEPS 75% OF THEIR CARDS (IN FUTURE 100%) FOR THEIR OWN CANDIDATES. ALSO U HAVE A CHANCE OF THE HALO OF A UNI PROGRAM WEARING OFF ON UR FSHIP APPLI IN TERMS OF PRESTIGE, RECO AND RESEARCH. MY SOURCES ARE IMMPECCABLE. KINDLY CHECK WHETHER U ARE ON THE FOURTH PLANET AWAY FROM THE SUN
u mentioned about older grads and stuff and waiting. i did not make a generalised statement. u have the inclination to do so. my comment was in answer to ur allencompassing prior statement about it being ridiculous to not accept positions..
btw affiliation means nothing. lincoln is affiliated to cornell and brooklyn hospital to columbia. kindly search a little. i know the program in question - ucsf fresno - THEY DID KICK OUT A RESIDENT. maybe he was incompetant. maybe not. why did u put the onus of the blame sorely on the guy?? isnt that sentencing before trial??
ur right that no1 guarantees u a spot. but uni grads have never had a problem gettin A fellowship. every1 has to be very competitive for THE fellowships. comm grads have few difficulties even in getting even A fellowship. and the only guarantee in life is death. but i like to take some life insurance - if u know what i mean..
dead is the man whose heart does not say with pride that this is my land
every system in the world is flawed. and what makes u say that studyin in india does not make a good doctor??? that means the health care system in india doesnt exist whatsoever!!! if ur commenting on the state of pg in india - i say that india has one of the best health setups in the world if u see its status as a developing country. but if there is no money then they cant have pg seats. if its the best healthcare setup in the world ur after then ur in the wrong country. go down south to castroland in cuba - THAT HAS THE BEST HEALTHCARE SETUP IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF INDICES..
please be more wise in your comments next time. shock and awe doesnt work for long. looking forward to more substance in your future posts.
apurva
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| Lorena
Forum Elite
Topics: 9
Posts: 237
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Now everybody stopped writing about the programs they wouldnt like to go - 
and it is too bad because some respected users were providing very good information about the programs where they got interviews -very useful for the incoming scramble- specially for some of us who will probably be participating in it .
any other inputs? 
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| tania_b
Forum Elite
Topics: 10
Posts: 119
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Dr kill I agree that this topic has dragged too much, but I guess I HAVE to respond to some of the comments made.
Well as I have explained earlier I was not degrading the Indian Healthcare system, so Apurva your comment "dead is the man whose heart does not say with pride that this is my land " is totally misplaced. "Which world you are living in",was more of a colloquial construct, it was never intended to offend you. And I was disappointed by your comment "please be more wise in your comments next time. shock and awe doesnt work for long. looking forward to more substance in your future posts", I have nothing to say but, to comment on someone's wisdom and knowledge by considering yourself as the benchmark with "impeccable resources" is not appropriate and a tad bit rude.
I guess in this forum someone like me with average scores (the 80's), with not the most stellar Interview calls, is not exactly considered "wise", because I don't have high 90's scores and an "impressive" CV. Well what can I say, it just feels sad when I see people judging other's opinion with such a high degree of intolerance and agitation. I agree most of you guys have terrific credentials and do pat each other's backs which is evident in this forum.
Regarding Vai's comment "once drunk....", you and others who share your view DO NOT REPRESENT THE ENTIRE POOL OF ASPIRING MEDICAL GRADUATES, so to state that YOUR OPINION IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, THE ORACLE, IS FAR FETCHED....
In the end I would say I totally agree with drkill's statement "the competition is getting worse each yr n i hope everyone makes a good decision this yr and may they be happy in whatever they decide. good luck. "
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| rashmi_k3
Forum Elite
Topics: 27
Posts: 301
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Who started this thread? me, me n me..
so will u guyz plz plz plz listen to me?
stop it n name some of those below average programmes U interviewd..
It will definitely help many of us.......
tania_b, vai, chivas, kill i expect few more inputs from you guyz
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| doc_droc_apurva
Forum Guru
Topics: 38
Posts: 1,705
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i started my point with humility and i will end it with that. u questioned my "orientation" - colloquially or literally - i had to respond to u. i quoted my references not to belittle u - but to clear ur doubts. whenever i have posted here i have tried to be as truthful and blunt as i can.
gl2u in ur residency
apurva
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